Rethink Sales Podcast: The Love-Hate Relationship With Remote Work

Mark Donnolo
Welcome to the SalesGlobe Rethink Sales Podcast. I’m Michelle Seger.

Michelle Seger
And I’m Mark Donnolo.

Mark Donnolo
You know, Michelle, nothing is as it seems anymore in this crazy world.

Michelle Seger
Nope. This virtual world we live in, you just never know what you’re gonna see every single day when you wake up.

Mark Donnolo
It’s like our topic today.

Michelle Seger
Yes. Ah, the love hate relationship with remote work.

Mark Donnolo
Now, I’ve always loved to work. So I’ve never had a hate relationship with work unless it was that at sailboat factory that I used to work for when I was a teenager. There were some things that happen there that I didn’t like that job, but I’ve always loved work. So this will be an interesting topic.

Michelle Seger
Oh, yeah, it’s a great topic. And I’m really excited. So let’s get to it Mark.

Michelle Seger
Okay, Mark, so we’re going to get into the love hate relationship with remote work that both employees and employers have today.

Mark Donnolo
Yeah, you know, I’ve always loved work, Michelle. I’ve never associated the word hate with work, except maybe the first job I had as a fiberglass laminator in a sailboat factory, but it’s kind of child labor thing. So it got better after that, but I’ve always loved work.

Michelle Seger
Well, maybe you would love that one more if it was remote, Mark.

Mark Donnolo
Remote lamination.

Michelle Seger
Yeah.

Mark Donnolo
It’s possible.

Michelle Seger
You never know!

Mark Donnolo
Not back in the 1970s, though.

Michelle Seger
Maybe not. Anyway. So I think it would be great if we just back to the impetus, let’s talk about how this whole thing started. And why is this whole love hate relationship with remote work? Like it seems to be hitting the front page or pretty close to it of almost every single newspaper right now. Right? It’s on the tip of everyone’s tongue. And everybody’s talking about how are we going to work and remote work? Is it in or is it out?

Mark Donnolo
Yeah. And you know, what’s really ironic is the challenges that people are running into companies running into right now around engagement, collaboration. We’ve been talking about this since the beginning of 2020, Michelle.

Michelle Seger
Oh, I know. I’m very excited. Oh, you and I, that was one of our big predictions in 2020. Right? We were talking about bunnies slipper fatigue. And we said this isn’t going to last this love relationship with the remote work. And here we are. So let’s talk about why you know why it started to begin with. People were working, let’s just talk about the United States. Before COVID hit this big pandemic, anywhere from the stats will take anywhere from 2% upwards of maybe 13% of people are working remote, at least part time pre pandemic, right. And what we know and what we all experience is that number jumped to higher than 90% literally overnight, when the pandemic hit, and I remember that day boy, it was March 13 2020. And it was a Friday the 13th. So what happened, Mark?

Mark Donnolo
Well, it was about safety. It was about protection. It was about shelter in place. And we did that, like you said for a long period of time. And then we started to develop a practice of it.

Michelle Seger
Yeah.

Mark Donnolo
And I started thinking about habits and how long does it take to create a habit?

Michelle Seger
Yeah, well, we know it’s 30 to 45 days to make or break a habit.

Mark Donnolo
Okay. 3045 days make or break a habit. We’ve been doing this for two years now. So this is like beyond a habit. This is like an ingrained part of our psyche and what we do, and then it went from safety to now becoming the expectation. Yeah, like, Oh, we’re just gonna keep doing this. And, and so I think for a lot of us, it brings up this question, well, how did that happen? That just kind of slid in there. And one executive told me a while back, he said, I think this is like the great experiment that wouldn’t have happened unless an event happened like this, that we were moving toward people wanting to work more remote. And this finally kicked it over the edge.

Michelle Seger
Yeah. And you know, there were reasons for that. That made sense. Right. So I think about a city like Atlanta, for example. We have we have pretty bad traffic, right? So it can take a couple hours to get to and from work. So we were working remote one day a week, when I just think about sales globe, but to your point, then it became this full expectation to the point that now 70% of employees expect or really want to work remotely moving ahead, right. It’s not really meeting with employee expectations. But yeah.

Mark Donnolo
I mean when you look at what employer expectations, the big gap is like you said, 70% of employees think that continue to work remote. And when we surveyed employers, they expected about a third of people to continue to work remote. So you got about a 40% difference between those two. And for a while, companies weren’t quite getting it, they didn’t didn’t quite understand that. But now they can see that gap. So there’s a big gap to be bridged there. And so, you know, the employer saw all sorts of benefits initially around cost savings. And then this idea of liability, being concerned about people coming back to the office things like okay, we don’t want him to come back in and there was all this talk about, well, productivity is actually increasing. Well, it’s increasing for some, but not for all, but then it became kind of extrapolated to the whole population. It’s like everybody’s increasing productivity now. So there’s this gap that has to be bridged between what employers expect and what employees expect.

Michelle Seger
Right. So that’s where we are today, where we are today is that employers are going to have to start making some decisions. And employees are still grappling and thinking through what makes the most sense for them. And so what I’d love for us to do is what we’re going to do is have this conversation around with no political boundaries, right? What really do employees love? And what should they be thinking about, though, that’s practical as they think about remote work, and then also we’re going to get into what they hate. And then we’ll take it, you know, from the employee, and then onto the employer side of this. So let’s start talking about the employees and the things that they really do love about remote work. And it all starts with…

Mark Donnolo
Yeah, flexibility, I guess the first thing that comes up is like, I love the flexibility in my schedule. And I can do things when I need to do them, I can work anytime. So if I’m a night person, I can work at night, I don’t have to work, you know, nine to five. So if I have a job that allows me to do that, and I can do things sort of asynchronously, I can do that. Right. So we still have to actually collaborate with people, but But it gives you gives you more flexibility there.

Michelle Seger
Yep. And there was this whole thing around, you know, the, as a result of that, what’s the outcome? The outcome of being flexible, like that allows you an opportunity to have more of, you know, lifework balance is what, what the common term is, right? But I mean, even speaking from some of our own people here, I hear stories about, oh, gosh, it was kind of cool, because I have, you know, breakfast home with my son where normally I would be heading out to the airport, for example, you know, really early in the morning, being present at some games that maybe I wasn’t before. So it caused, I think this two year experiment for people who are employees to really be thinking about what did I miss? You know, and what’s the, this flexibility that’s being offered to me? So that’s some of the plus, right? And some of the things that people love. So what about employers? What is it that they love so much about this?

Mark Donnolo
Well, I mean, employers employers, not like this. You know, amorphous objects, they’re, they’re people to write, see, you’ve got people in managerial positions, that they look at their own roles, I think, and they love the flexibility as well, right. So they have some of the things that everybody likes, because they’re, they’re able to to get those benefits as well. I think from the kind of big E employer, they they like the cost savings on real estate, particularly as the leases expire, so they’re not committed to as much real estate. One company we work with in Philadelphia, huge office tower in Philadelphia. They basically and they moved into that a few years ago, they basically are closing that down. And they’re setting up a an office in suburban Philadelphia, and one in New Jersey. Right. So making some big shifts in that way. And a lot of a lot of companies are going to more satellite offices, that type of thing. Facilities, so you know, saving savings in all those areas, and of course, cost savings on travel. So yeah, they’re not people aren’t out, flying around. And all the costs associated with that. So a lot, a lot of savings in those areas. And then I think geographic options, so as you’re looking at hiring people, you no longer have the geographic boundary. So we’re always talking to executives and managers about new roles when they’re trying to you’re going to try something new. And they’ll always say, Well, I really want to stay in the in the metro New York area, or the Atlanta area, whatever it might be. Now, that’s not even a consideration because they can work anywhere and companies can hire anywhere. So that kind of opens up the opportunities for everybody.

Michelle Seger
Yeah, so we were talking to a head of sales of a high tech company. And he was telling us not that long ago, Mark that they’re inside sales was actually performing so much better than they did pre pandemic, and they’re working from homes, but the reason is because they’ve been able to open up where they hire From so instead of these two small cities, where they were asking people to come into these offices, he said, we have been poaching across the US. We’ve been pulling the best people from other companies that we know. And they are killing it, you know, but it’s also a very certain profile, that he’s hiring two, that’s actually killing it out there in the market. And so I think that that will start to lead us into what are some of the things that now we’re two years into it, do employers, let’s talk about the employer first. What is that there’s making them a little hesitant about this remote work? And what do they not like so much, and then we’ll get into the employee perspective. And then lastly, I’d like us to talk a little bit about some of the things that nobody is talking about it today. Yeah.

Mark Donnolo
That’ll be exciting.

Michelle Seger
Yeah, so what are they openly talking about that they do not like? Employers.

Mark Donnolo
Well, I think one of the first ones is something that hasn’t really shown up yet, across the board, which is lack of development. So what I mean by that is, you got, ironically, the younger generations who are going, “Oh, I love all this remote work. And this is great.” And, you know, ” I’d rather be in my apartment than have to go to the go to the office.” But what we’re missing is a lot of those people early in career. And they’re not getting the developmental opportunities that we all got when we’re their age, about being around your peers, you know, people that that you report to, and learning through contact and learning through just demonstration and being humans, right. Yes. But but that’s the great irony. They’re going “I’m okay”, but then we’re going “no, you’re not.” But the thing is, you’re not going to know that for a few years. And in some employers don’t realize that yet. But a lot of employers are recognizing that. So they’re like, Well, what are we going to do in terms of developing people? Because the risk is we’re going to have a generation of underdeveloped professionals.

Michelle Seger
Yeah. And you know, think about your early years in your career. Can you remember that far back?

Mark Donnolo
Yeah, it was after the sailboat laminating factory.

Michelle Seger
Okay. So it was after the 50’s. So that’s good. Okay. So if we think back to those days, right now, I’m thinking about it myself. You know, how did you learn? You would have your boss or colleague that you go to lunch with them. Or they’d say, hey, you know, I’m working on this thing over here. And you’d kind of sit over their shoulder or you’d, I would even say, in my early days, I’d say, “Hey, can you tell me what you’re doing? Can I just kind of watch?” And I would just learn that way.

Mark Donnolo
Right.

Michelle Seger
And so when you talk about the development opportunities, it’s not all structured development, a lot of it just naturally happens. And when we talk about younger people to get in that development, it’s also building their network their business.

Mark Donnolo
Oh, sure. Yeah.

Michelle Seger
Right. So all of that leads to your development, being able to choose a mentor, like all those things, I think are the employer is recognizing is at high risk. And for some younger people just getting out of school, they don’t know what they don’t know.

Mark Donnolo
They don’t know. And they can’t know because they’ve never, they’ve never lived through that. So yeah, so definitely a big situation there. And then speaking of ironies, lack of collaboration, we’re humans. And creativity comes from connection. So the irony here is the companies that are the most vocal about all, you know, you can work anywhere remote work, are supposedly the innovators, especially like in high tech, and they’re like, you can work anywhere. But that’s the thing that’s going to cause the disconnection and the lack of innovation and the lack of collaboration. And so again, this is another one of those lagging factors. I don’t think we’re going to see it for some period of time. But I think we’re going to start to see a turn at some point where it’s like, well, wait a second, we’re not, you know, we saw more of the, quote, productivity improvements that we could measure with numbers, right, left brain, all that kind of stuff. But we’re not seeing the same level of innovation over this period that we thought we were going to see. And when they’re looking back on it, so I think that’s going to show up at some point.

Michelle Seger
Well, and when we think about, you know, innovation, and we think about collaboration, and you know how people work that all gets to the other high risk area, which is company culture. Mm hmm.

Mark Donnolo
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. How do you build a culture when everybody’s looking each other on cameras?

Michelle Seger
It’s a real, it’s a real challenge. Yeah. And that’s what you know, big companies are being pretty brave, CEOs are coming out there. Well, look at Salesforce, they’ve come out and they’ve said, Look, our culture has been at risk. And they’ve done a couple things where it’s they’re going to a hybrid model. We do know that about three days in the office, and they’re creating a lot of companies – maybe don’t have these resources. They’ve actually bought an absolutely beautiful center where they can have people retreat. There. gonna have people out there for meetings. And it’s really all about continuing to build the culture of the organization.

Mark Donnolo
Yeah. And it’s a whole outdoor redwoods thing. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that’s really interesting because Salesforce is pushing back, that I think they’re one of the challengers in this whole situation saying we need to get people back together. We know the value of that. So they’ve been holding events and things of that nature. So, in fact, tell us about that commercial you saw, because I think that was really telling.

Michelle Seger
Oh, yeah, #teamearth. I think it’s right, right. Yeah. teamers, everybody saw favorite commercials they played during the Superbowl, I don’t even watch TV. And this one caught my eye. So it, you know, it’s kind of interesting. It’s about virtual reality. But if you read into the commercial, and you watch what’s happening, it’s about connecting with people. So it opens up with Matthew McConaughey, who doesn’t like him, right? He’s on there. And he’s talking about space. And Mars is like, you know, and everything we got is right here, you know, right. But what he goes on to talk about is building trusted relationships. And it shows two people holding hands. It’s about creating an office space for everyone. And you see these people sitting in an office, right? And it’s kind of it’s not that there’s not a place for virtual communication. But it’s almost like we’re starting to pivot a little too far over to that side. And I thought it was really strong for Salesforce to come out with that. Messaging. That’s how I interpreted it any way.

Mark Donnolo
Yeah, great, great statement, you know, which I think brings up another call it hate point from employers, which is having to pander to the popular culture around remote. And this came out way early on with Jamie Dimon at JPMorgan center, but he’s gonna come back into the office, and everybody’s like, Oh, how can you say that? Yeah, that’s heresy, you know, work. Are you kidding? And so you know, then he got canceled out on that. And now all of a sudden, we’re starting to realize it, it’s like, it takes a while, you know.

Michelle Seger
Nobody’s talking about them anymore.

Mark Donnolo
When the dinosaur gets a hit and the tail takes a while for it to finally get to the brain. And so Salesforce is now coming out saying, okay, yeah, hello, we got to do this.

Michelle Seger
Yeah. And Home Depot is back in. There’s a lot of companies that are back in and you know, what, there’s what we think will be? Well, we’ll talk about what’s going to be here to stay. We believe it’s hybrid, but let’s talk about what employees hate about this remote work. Alright, so we’re talking about love hate. We talked about what everything that the employers don’t like. Now, let’s get to the employee perspective.

Mark Donnolo
Well, one of the likes we talked about was work life balance earlier on. But I think that’s also a hate, because is it really work life balance. Because if my office is my living room, or if it’s around the corner from my living room, I never really get away from it. So I’m always one step away from from the office. And there was a team we’re talking to the leader of this team is a few weeks ago. And he said, I used to love the commute. And he lives in New York area, because it gave me a separation between work and home. But now I don’t have that separation anymore. So it just never stops. So some of us has have difficulty setting boundaries, right? So that’s one of them, which is you can just continue to do this all the time. And, you know, of course, there’s the Zoom fatigue, which is, you know, how many conference calls can you be on back to back where you’re, quote, collaborating with people, but not really. And so that’s a heavy fatigue area. That’s a tough areas.

Michelle Seger
Yeah. It sure is. The other thing is, so, you know, there’s some stuff that people are, they’re starting to talk about, but not really. And the first one I’m going to bring up is this whole idea that’s real. It’s very real, about anxiety and depression. And what we knew even pre pandemic, and it was really, there’s a lot of books that were starting to be written about this about, you know, Gen Z, cuz I’ve got a couple kids that fall in that in that age. And it’s a little scary, right? So all that screen time, and Instagram, which is where everyone’s beautiful, 365 days of the year, and they’re happy and you know, it all is good. We’re hearing the same thing is happening with remote work. So people are seeing others, but not, not all the time and at their best. They don’t really know what’s going on. And what we are hearing is that the depression and anxiety is going up in people and there was a study that came out in between the let’s say, Gen Z, and it was the millennials, so it was like 18 to 39 year old and the majority stated that those that said they want to work for mode also stated that they were more anxious and had more depression and a little more isolation. So it’s like, well, what, how much trade off is there there? You know, I want to be at home. But I’m a little more anxious and a little more isolated. So there’s got to be something in the middle. So we’re not spending a lot of time talking about those implications, which definitely will impact productivity.

Mark Donnolo
Yep. Yep, absolutely.

Michelle Seger
The other thing is, I’m going to call this bologna on a synchronous work, because I’m going to say that there’s a lot of people that might be saying they’re doing it, but they’re not. So one of the other things that we are observing from the employer perspective, and if employees really, you know, if you really think about it, think about your how you’ve been working over the past two years. And are you as sharp? Are you as on? And are you as aware and connected as you were pre pandemic? This isn’t to say that I’m not, you know, a proponent of hybrid work, because I actually am I think it’s got a great place. But are you aware of all the meetings? Are you missing any? You know, because we’re hearing, and we’re on meetings, and we’re seeing things happen in events where people just don’t show up?

Mark Donnolo
Yeah, yeah. We call that the COVID. slumber. Yes. People are doling out right. So they’re not a shark. And I got a tag on my theory Y, which is, when you’re in person, you’re working with somebody? Yeah. All the neurons are firing. Yeah, you’re connecting a lot of stuffs happening. But when you’re looking at a screen, that starts to dull you down, yeah. So yeah, I think that I think that’s a real issue that that whole COVID slumber. And and then we were talking earlier, Michelle, about the idea of mixed priorities, and in lines being blurred on priorities, and for years, it’s been one way, which is we’ve all had to sacrifice for our careers, we’ve had to prioritize work. It’s like, well, you know, I can’t, I can’t be there for baseball practice, because I’ve got work or whatever. And it seems like it’s kind of getting really blurred, and almost going the other way. So somebody’s taking a call, and you hear the crack of a bat in the background. And this is not just like, you know, an occasional occurrence. This kind of stuff happens all the time. And you’re like, wait a second, what are we doing? Are we really working? Are we do we have like, split focus?

Michelle Seger
Well, and then we’re hearing right, even for companies that have got a hybrid work situation, let’s say they want they’re asking for people to be in two days a week? Well, heck, it’s everything from the plumber is coming to, you know, I got to drop my dry cleaning off to who knows what, right? So it’s like, well, wait a second here. So I think that these are the things people are not talking about. So I think employers and employees have to be honest with themselves and say, Okay, if we’re going to have a contract on hybrid working, if that’s the future, then what are the expectations, the new expectations? What should they look like? And what does that contract look like? That works for both parties? Right, so.

Mark Donnolo
So a few big takeaways here, then yeah, based on what you’re saying. So I think that contract is a really important point. And the clarity, which is something that we’ve heard a lot about the lack of clarity, and we were looking through a lot of information we had recently on what companies are doing in terms of their return to work or their remote work policies. And they were all in writing. And so many of them were just vague and wishy washy.

Michelle Seger
Very unclear.

Mark Donnolo
Right. And I remember this, one executive recently said, the biggest frustration he had was that the CEO was just really murky about what the whole plan was, it was just vague, right? So then there’s lack of leadership, because leadership doesn’t want to make a statement about what they’re doing, because they fear that it’s going to create concern among, you know, the population is actually the wrong direction to go. You got to be clear about what that contract is and what you what you want people to know what the organization is going to do.

Michelle Seger
People are looking for that leadership, agreed. Okay, so mark, we have talked about a lot of different things today about working remote in the hybrid workforce in that love hate relationship. And I’d like to summarize this up because we’ve given some people a few things to think about. And I think takeaways would be, gosh, remote work is here to stay. There are pros and there are cons. And I think, you know, from the employee standpoint, as an individual, what you need to be thinking about is are you What do you love about remote work? And are you actually meeting your employer’s expectations for when you are working remote so whatever their expectations are, are you prioritizing properly. So does the company’s expectation align with yours? Right?

Mark Donnolo
Right. And, you know, you made this point before as well, which is, when you’re when you’re coming to the office, come there for a reason, don’t come there, put your headphones on and put your head down because we’re there to actually collaborate. So have more intention about that. When you’re having meetings, and you’re traveling, you know, travel with intention. So there’s really a reason to do that. So we’ve got to be a lot more purposeful about what we’re doing in those areas.

Michelle Seger
Yeah. So I think it’s exciting future we have ahead of us. Still a little challenging as we sorted out as a new way of working the future of work, but hybrid is here to stay. So you know more to come on that and thanks, everyone for joining us today.

Mark Donnolo
Thanks for joining us. And remember SalesGlobe is a data-driven, creative problem-solving firm for sales.

Michelle Seger
Yes, we solve your biggest sales challenges, and we would love to hear from you about yours.

Mark Donnolo
You can find us at salesglobe.com and connect with us on LinkedIn.